Counter-Strike:Source issues, bugs with CSS and 8800's Options

[jimmydean723]

I have talked to numerous people that own an 8800GTS/GTX, and everyone who plays CSS is having the same issues. Thus far I haven't seen a thread about bugs in this game (which seems odd to me considering how immensly popular it is...), so I thought I would start one. I will post the issues I have encountered and I would encourage others to post if they have had the same issue, or if they have any new issues.

The game is virtually unplayable if you attempt to run in dx9.0c due to a very thick distance fog which is rendered. The only way to get rid of the distance fog which I am aware of is to run the game in dx8.1 or lower, which is something that shouldn't need to be done with cards like these.


There are problems rendering decals from a far distance. This one seems to have surfaced rather recently after a steam update, but it does only occur with the 8800's.


I don't have a clue how nvidia is run, but to me it seems like these sort of issues would be rather high on their priority list. Issues with their top of the line cards and the 2nd most popular game in the world. I'm just hoping to see fixes in the very new future... the distance fog has been around since the card came out...

[DisRuptive1]

What are your options set at???

[squall_leonhart]

KNOWN ISSUES, NOT NVIDIA'S FAULT.

go and ask when it'll be fixed at the Valve forums.

[jimmydean723]

KNOWN ISSUES, NOT NVIDIA'S FAULT.

go and ask when it'll be fixed at the Valve forums.
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Ah so those are both failures on Valve's end? I've gotta say that valve always has and apparently continues to do a terrible job of getting their games to work properly. i.e.- updates that cause half of the users' games not to work... At least I don't have to send any hate nVidia's way; I've already got most of it channeled at Valve atm anyways

[Silent Bob]

Ah so those are both failures on Valve's end?  I've gotta say that valve always has and apparently continues to do a terrible job of getting their games to work properly.  i.e.- updates that cause half of the users' games not to work...   At least I don't have to send any hate nVidia's way; I've already got most of it channeled at Valve atm anyways 
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Ive banged on the latest drivers i got off the net for vista and the fog issue seems to have improved , its not totally gone but at least i can now look out the doors at B towards ct spawn and the creats are not grey i can see them so lets hope this is the start of nvidia sorting out the issues with css for our 8000 series cards.

your a lill bit happier SILENTBOB

[Dracusis]

Ive banged on the latest drivers i got off the net for vista and the fog issue seems to have improved , its not totally gone but at least i can now look out the doors at B towards ct spawn and the creats are not grey i can see them so lets hope this is the start of nvidia sorting out the issues with css for our 8000 series cards.

your a lill bit happier SILENTBOB 
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I'd suspect that's because the Vista version of DirectX 9 (translating from native DirectX 10) works in a similar fashion to other native DX 9.0 cards do. Source games in DirectX 9.0 under Win XP are still buggered under the Jan 10 driver release. I emailed Valve tech support back in December, they said they were working on it but nothing else, no ETA for a fix or anything. I'm not holding my breath. Valve have gotten their last dollar out of me, their post sales support is terrible and there are plenty of othe decent games to play and developers to support.

[szroncs]

hi i hava some problem with css, see the pictures!

Attached File(s)

 de_dust20001.JPG ( 213.21K ) Number of downloads: 1541
 de_dust20003.JPG ( 257.27K ) Number of downloads: 1350
 de_dust20004.JPG ( 210.23K ) Number of downloads: 1333
 de_dust20007.JPG ( 207.33K ) Number of downloads: 995
 de_dust20020.JPG ( 240.26K ) Number of downloads: 1036

 

[squall_leonhart]

I'd suspect that's because the Vista version of DirectX 9 (translating from native DirectX 10) works in a similar fashion to other native DX 9.0 cards do. Source games in DirectX 9.0 under Win XP are still buggered under the Jan 10 driver release. I emailed Valve tech support back in December, they said they were working on it but nothing else, no ETA for a fix or anything. I'm not holding my breath. Valve have gotten their last dollar out of me, their post sales support is terrible and there are plenty of othe decent games to play and developers to support.
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your a little confused there mate

Dx9 doesn't translate to DX10

Dx9 and Dx10 are both fully functioning *SEPARATE* api's in Vista.

it is Dx6 - 8 that is converted to Dx9 code.

hence Dx9L

[nthexwn]

KNOWN ISSUES, NOT NVIDIA'S FAULT.

go and ask when it'll be fixed at the Valve forums.
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Funnily enough one of the moderators on the Steam forums who's proclaimed himself as the official message bearer from the Valve developers is now blaming Nvidia for the problem! :-S

"Official" Steam Forum Post Regarding 8800 Series Source Engine Bugs

I guess some people will just believe whatever their favorite company tells them, but it's obvious to me that either Valve or Nvidia is lying outright at this point. I don't even care who's at fault any more. I just want the responsible party to fess up and fix it rather than pointing fingers. Both companies are losing customers over this, so you'd think they might even work together!

BTW I spent a couple of hours documenting this if anybody would like a more detailed summary of the problem:
Summary of 8800 Series Problems on Source Engine

[squall_leonhart]

how are both companies losing customers

Vista isn't something to cry about, its made by microsoft, so i don't see the big deal with it... its just another pathetic way for ms to continue its strangle hold on its monoloptic empire.

the moderators at the steam forums are idiots btw.

anyway, this can't be an Nvidia problem, its a problem with the graphics engine, the game just doesn't support the 8800 thats all, you see similar problems with farcry when using the stock version on a geforce 6 or higher. shadows are broken, beach disappears... buildings are all brightly lit up when they shouldn't.

anyway, its not fixed on vista, its just not as bad.

This post has been edited by squall_leonhart: Feb 5 2007, 09:12 AM

[nthexwn]

how are both companies losing customers[right][snapback]155617[/snapback][/right]

A lot of people don't know or care about the details and just see that "ATI cards work with CSS and Nvidia cards don't" even though there's more to it than that. I know several of these people and some of them have even gone back to using the ATI cards that they upgraded from since CSS is their favorite game and they need it to function properly for competition and such. Several more of them are waiting for the R600 instead now since they see that the new Nvidia cards "won't work with their favorite game."

Even if the fault lies with Valve and not Nvidia, on the surface it makes Nvidia look bad too. The only change consumers are making is with their graphics cards, so they assume that's what's causing the change in performance without stopping to think about how the Source engine reacts to different hardware.

Of course Valve has established a reputation for software bugs and content delivery problems so people are quick to point the finger at them as well. The fact that these problems are showing up on the source engine and not in other games doesn't help their credibility much either.

In public relations customer perception is more important than truth, and right now consumers have several reasons to see both companies in a sour light regardless of what's actually going on behind the scenes.

[tonjohn]

G'day Mates,

Valve is working together with nVidia to fix the issue. The last words I heard directly from Valve were that it shouldn't be an issue for much longer.

Please be patient. This is a brand new GPU architecture so it takes sometime to get the kinks out of the software and drivers. Also, Vista+the new driver model make life harder for everyone as well.

Your patience and understanding is much appreciated.

FYI: I currently use a BFG 8800GTX so I share your frustration

Funnily enough one of the moderators on the Steam forums who's proclaimed himself as the official message bearer from the Valve developers is now blaming Nvidia for the problem!  :-S

Mate,

Nowhere do I blame nVidia (notice the "if" and "most likely"). Valve has acknowledged that the issue is partially on their end and I am not denying that.

I am not a Valve fanboy nor am I an nVidia fanboy. Like you, I am a gamer who dropped nearly $1000 for the latest-and-greatest thinking that it would work wonderfully in all my favorite games.

I guess some people will just believe whatever their favorite company tells them, but it's obvious to me that either Valve or Nvidia is lying outright at this point.

Valve has acknowledged atleast partial responsibility for the issue and, as previously mentioned, are doing what they can on their end to fix it.

Both companies are losing customers over this

Despite what people claim, it is highly unlikely that either company are losing customers over this (especially since only .65% of all STEAM users have a card based on the G80).

you'd think they might even work together!

As previously stated, Valve and nVidia are working together to fix this issue.

the moderators at the steam forums are idiots btw.

I appreciate your kind words mate. Cheers!

[L33t Masta]

G'day Mates,

Valve is working together with nVidia to fix the issue. The last words I heard directly from Valve were that it shouldn't be an issue for much longer.

Please be patient.  This is a brand new GPU architecture so it takes sometime to get the kinks out of the software and drivers.  Also, Vista+the new driver model make life harder for everyone as well.

Your patience and understanding is much appreciated.

FYI: I currently use a BFG 8800GTX so I share your frustration

Mate,

Nowhere do I blame nVidia (notice the "if" and "most likely").  Valve has acknowledged that the issue is partially on their end and I am not denying that. 

I am not a Valve fanboy nor am I an nVidia fanboy.  Like you, I am a gamer who dropped nearly $1000 for the latest-and-greatest thinking that it would work wonderfully in all my favorite games.
Valve has acknowledged atleast partial responsibility for the issue and, as previously mentioned, are doing what they can on their end to fix it.
Despite what people claim, it is highly unlikely that either company are losing customers over this (especially since only .65% of all STEAM users have a card based on the G80).
As previously stated, Valve and nVidia are working together to fix this issue.
I appreciate your kind words mate. Cheers!
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Now I can finally tell you without fear of getting banned. Valve is full of total bullcrap. nVidia says it's Valve's fault, then it's valves fault. You're asking me to belive in a company that can't even keep release dates straight against one that I have trusted since the very beginning with my computer hardware. Hmm...am I going to pick the unreliable company (Valve) or the one that hasn't screwed me over in all the years that I've been using their tech (nVidia)? Not a tough choice there. Valve better get this issue fixed now because as soon as the mid grade 8800 series hit's there's going to be hell to pay. And who cares how many of us are using it? Are you saying that just because 0.65% use it, that we arn't important enough to warrent an update to make a game playable? And I don't give damn if you're having the same problem, I demand the best from my hardware and expect that the companies keep up. it seems when Crysis hits I'll be playing that online more than anything valve can produce. Atlease they have it down that high-end gamers shouldn't be ignored.

[tonjohn]

Oh man I love nVidia fanboys

Anyways, some good stuff yall should read:

Where are my NVIDIA Drivers for Vista?

I must say that Vista driver support for the GeForce 8800 series video cards has been a hot topic in our Video Card forums for quite some time. We here at HardOCP have extolled the virtues of GeForce 8800 ownership since the day of its introduction. Our readers that represent a huge portion of the 8800 owners are now asking, �Where the hell are my signed Vista drivers?�

The fact of the matter is that the GeForce 8800 series is currently the best video card you can purchase for 3D gaming�if your income exceeds the GDP of some of the new Eastern European countries. That is a bit of an exaggeration, but you can easily spend US$365 on a �cheap� brand of a 8800 GTS to in excess of US$900 for an overclocked 8800 GTX with warrantied and preinstalled water cooling. Introduce into that mix that many of our readers are cutting-edge sort of guys that have invested in SLI system configurations. That considered, you can see where it is very easy to have spent $800 to $1600 on an 8800 series video card configuration.

Let�s also consider how NVIDIA has marketed their 8800 series GPU. Checking NVIDIA�s PR page, we find more than a few mentions of �DX10� or �Windows Vista.� One, two, three, four, five. In all fairness, these are not all in reference to the GeForce 8800 specifically, but a lot of the press releases make a big deal about Windows Vista and DX10 support. Currently NVIDIA proclaim on their GeForce 8 Series page that:

    NVIDIA� GeForce� 8 series graphics processing units (GPUs) redefine the PC gaming experience. With a revolutionary unified architecture and full support for Microsoft� DirectX� 10 games, GeForce 8 series GPUs deliver unprecedented performance, extraordinarily detailed environments, and film quality game effects.

Even in our evaluation of the BFGTech 8800 GTS and GTX, we lead with, �The day has finally arrived, the first DirectX 10, Shader Model 4.0 graphics hardware is here and NVIDIA is the first out of the gate.�

Undoubtedly a huge draw to the GeForce 8800 series GPU is that it is DX10 capable graphics hardware. Many hardware enthusiasts that live on the cutting edge of hardware and software invested in their 8800 series GPUs because they knew that not only were they going to get incredible DX9 performance immediately, but they were also building their systems to be compatible with DX10 in the new Windows Vista operating system.

For months, many of these card owners and critics have been very vocal about appropriate driver support for these 8800 cards in both the 32-bit and 64-bit versions of Windows Vista. In fact, many of these 8800 card owners have been running Windows Vista for some time now without any official driver support from NVIDIA, which understandably has these owners upset. We have tried to quell this concern with the standard of answer of, �Just wait �til Vista is officially launched and the retail Vista OS is in the marketplace,� as we fully expected NVIDIA to be completely prepared to provide support to its customers when Vista arrived.

Well, here we are; Vista has arrived. It�s time to see if NVIDIA is standing behind their most expensive consumer product in its history.

Late on Wednesday afternoon, Pacific Time, NVIDIA released ForceWare v100.59, both in 32-bit and 64-bit flavors. This is a BETA driver that provides DX10 level support for 8800 single GPU configuration owners running Vista and single GPU DX9 support for GeForce 6/7/8 series GPUs in Vista. For you SLI owners out there, the Beta support is not near as broad. Only 8800 SLI under DX9 is supported in Vista currently. Those of you that have spent a lot of money on SLI GeForce 7 series configurations are currently left out in the cold.

This article is having to somewhat be rewritten because as of a few hours ago, there was NO SLI SUPPORT for 8800s in Vista at all. That was obviously a huge deal that has somewhat been fixed with ForceWare v100.59. As for DX10 SLI Beta support, NVIDIA is still undecided or unwilling to share their target date.

    G80 SLI support for DX10 is TBD.

For you GeForce 7 series SLI owners, you fate is still dangling as well in terms of Vista support.

    G7x/NV4x SLI support for OpenGL and DirectX 9 is TBD.

We have to still look at this and wonder just why we don�t have WHQL certified drivers as we are seeing 8800 users in our forums with real driver issues inside Vista. We also have to wonder about the impact of those NVIDIA users that want to move into the Vista 64-bit realm of computing as it seems non-signed drivers are a no-go.

    Additionally, Windows Vista x64 versions require that all drivers be digitally signed by the developer. If you've ever installed a driver in Windows XP, you'll likely be familiar with the unsigned driver dialog, which offers a "Continue Anyway" option when a setup application attempts to load an unsigned driver. In the x64 versions of Windows Vista, this will not be possible.

We have questions into NVIDIA now to clarify if these Beta ForceWare drivers will work with Vista 64-bit or not.

Vista is here and NVIDIA does not have a WHQL driver for their high-end GPUs. So when exactly should we expect to see a WHQL driver? According to what NVIDIA told us yesterday and verified today, 8800 owners could be waiting a good while for DX10 support for single 8800 GPU configurations.

    NVIDIA is working very closely with Microsoft to finalize the WHQL certified DirectX 10 driver. Both companies are working together to ensure that the driver is certified and delivered to customers as soon as possible. The current estimate is near the end of Feb for G80 WHQL.

When digging a bit deeper and asking for dates as to when we should see 8800 SLI WHQL drivers for Vista, which I think should have been a minimum requirement for Vista�s launch, this is what NVIDIA had to say:

    The driver we are working on for end of Feb for G80 WHQL will support DirectX 9 and OpenGL SLI.

So from what we are being told NVIDIA will not even hint to DX10 8800 SLI GPU support even being on a time horizon they are willing to estimate.

NVIDIA did close our email conversation with this statement.

    NVIDIA has placed a top priority on supporting our customers. NVIDIA will continue to work diligently on optimizing its Windows Vista drivers to ensure maximum performance on 3D applications through continuous driver updates. Our reputation for world-class support speaks for itself.

I fully appreciate and respect NVIDIA�s driver program as it has revolutionized the industry, but make no mistake about it, NVIDIA is not living up to its own standards at this time. The above �end of February� timeline and �To Be Determined� answers are unacceptable at best.

The Bottom Line

Windows Vista was not sprung on an unsuspecting NVIDIA last weekend. NVIDIA has known for a great while that WHQL Vista driver support is expected of them. They also know damn well that their enthusiast customer base will not find their current feeble attempts acceptable and that their self-stated �world-class support� is worth very little right now in terms of Windows Vista. We saw a Beta DX9 SLI driver released today for Vista that equates to putting a Band-Aid on a compound fracture. NVIDIA does not want to have their feet held to the fire for the slap in the face given to its 8800 SLI owners so they are trying their best to deflect that negative attention. There are surely many 7800 and 7900 SLI owners out there that feel slighted by NVIDIA as well. NVIDIA has enjoyed a strong reputation in the past year, much of that tied directly to SLI. NVIDIA not being ready for DX10, Vista, and SLI is a low blow to enthusiasts and gamers that spend the big bucks, and they will remember that for a while.

Talking to NVIDIA about this today, they explain they are very well aware that the enthusiast community is not happy with the state of the Vista drivers and they told HardOCP that they are working hard to fix the issues.

I wish we had better news for you than the nebulous dates and �TBD� answers we have shared with you above, but it seems that at the moment, that�s as good as it is going to get. Rest assured, I certainly think that the hardware enthusiasts and gamers that pay for these extremely expensive GeForce series video cards deserve much better support. �World-class support� should be a minimum expectation, not just a marketing tag line.

After reading that editorial by Kyle Bennett, I question how you can claim nVidia is as "reliable" as you make them out to be (especially if you go back to the days of the GeforceFX).

And if you want to call Valve unreliable because of release dates then you need to be saying the same about every single game developer and publisher out there. UT3 has been delayed by a year, STALKER has been delayed by several years, Doom3 was a year or two late, Crysis has been pushed back several times already, etc etc. And the few companies that do stick to their release dates end up releasing terribly buggy software.

Your comments make it clear that you are blind and unwilling to accept the possibility that nVidia could ever be at fault. I'm sorry but you can't be taken seriously.

This post has been edited by tonjohn: Feb 6 2007, 05:22 PM

[L33t Masta]

<Insert some long-winded bullcrap Valve propaganda here>

I love Valve fanboys


Game developers are unreliable. Valve is the worst for it. Waiting a year for episodic content? Blow that. Then there's the people that don't appreciate what nVidia has done by giving then DX10 tech. "OH LAWDY LAWDY WE DON'T HAVE SIGNED DRIVERS! WE'RE GONNA START A CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT THATS BOUND TO FAIL BECAUSE WE THINK WE GOT RIPPED OFF WHEN REALLY WE DIDN'T!"

nVidia is NOT at fault hereas seen in their documentation. Valve needs to fix it with their games. As seen they have the ability as they somewhat fixed the fog issue by rolling it back. What they need to do is either a. Disable it for 8800GTX users or b. GET IT THE HELL FIXED. At least nVidia is giving us official releases whereas Valve is merely using you as their bitch to tell us they aren't fixing the issue. Then you go and try to point out that only 0.65% of us are using GPUs. So basically (and you left this unanswered before) you think we don't deserve a fix because there's so few of us. Now again, do I trust the company that has NEVER screwed me over (nVidia) or the one that screws me over for release dates(valve)? Hmm...Well it seems the choice here is OBVIOUS. nVidia is the one to trust. maybe when Valve gives us an official ETA rather than having you spout your bullcrap "It'll be done soon" on the Steam forums we might be getting somewhere. And who gives a crap if Vista doesn't have official drivers now? There are no DX 10 games, there are drivers that work fine and Valve promised that they would be Vista ready. And they are. They work just fine. Now why don't you run back to Valve, have them post an OFFICIAL statement and then try to say that nVidia is unreliable. Fanboy my ass. It's called FACTS. Now without an official statement it seems that it is YOU that cannot be taken seriously.

This post has been edited by L33t Masta: Feb 6 2007, 05:40 PM

[tonjohn]

So I just got done doing some testing.

• Intel Core 2 Duo E6600
• Abit AW9D Max
• BFG 8800GTX
• 2x 1gb DDR1066 Corsair DominatorTWIN2X2048 - 8500C5D
• Integrated Sound
• 500gb Seagate 7200.10 16mb cache SATA
• 400gb WD 16mb cache SATA
• Lian-Li v2000 case
• PCP&C 610 watt PSU
• Dell 2005FPW
• Logitech G15
• Logitech G5
• Windows Vista Ultimate x64
• nVidia 100.59 Beta drivers

• Resolution
  1680 x 1050
• Model Detail
  High
• Texture Detail
  High
• Shader Detail
  High
• Water Detail
  Reflect All
• Shadow Detail
  High
• Antialiasing Mode
  4x MSAA
• Filtering Mode
  Trilinear
• Wait for Vertical Sync
  Disabled
• High Dynamic Range
  Full

I played several rounds with 7 bots on militia, dust, dust2, piranesi, and aztec.

Results:
All the issues I noticed when playing under WinXP with the latest nVidia drivers were gone. I noticed no fog issues whatsoever on any of the maps. Performance was great and FPS never dropped below 100fps on any map.

While the issue still exists on machines running WinXP, this is a very good sign.

This post has been edited by tonjohn: Feb 6 2007, 09:54 PM

[L33t Masta]

So I just got done doing some testing.

• Intel Core 2 Duo E6600
  
• Abit AW9D Max
  
• BFG 8800GTX
  
• 2x 1gb DDR1066 Corsair DominatorTWIN2X2048 - 8500C5D
  
• Integrated Sound
  
• 500gb Seagate 7200.10 16mb cache SATA
  
• 400gb WD 16mb cache SATA
  
• Lian-Li v2000 case
  
• PCP&C 610 watt PSU
  
• Dell 2005FPW
  
• Logitech G15
  
• Logitech G5
  
• Windows Vista Ultimate x64
  
• nVidia 100.59 Beta drivers
  

• Resolution
  1680 x 1050
  
• Model Detail
  High
  
• Texture Detail
  High
  
• Shader Detail
  High
  
• Water Detail
  Reflect All
  
• Shadow Detail
  High
  
• Antialiasing Mode
  4x MSAA
  
• Filtering Mode
  Trilinear
  
• Wait for Vertical Sync
  Disabled
  
• High Dynamic Range
  Full
  

I played several rounds with 7 bots on militia, dust, dust2, piranesi, and aztec.

Results:
All the issues I noticed when playing under WinXP with the latest nVidia drivers were gone.  I noticed no fog issues whatsoever on any of the maps.  Performance was great and FPS never dropped below 100fps on any map.

While the issue still exists on machines running WinXP, this is a very good sign.
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Now all valve needs to do is get the XP game right.

[L33t Masta]

Wow...Now valve holds Episode 2 back another quarter. Reeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaalllll realiable. If you seriously don't think this is to cover up for the 8800 issue, then you're seriously mistaken.

[squall_leonhart]

Actually, the Bug still Exists on Vista, there has even been screenies on the valve forums to prove it.

its just not as bad

[tonjohn]

Wow...Now valve holds Episode 2 back another quarter. Reeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaalllll realiable. If you seriously don't think this is to cover up for the 8800 issue, then you're seriously mistaken.
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Yes, Valve are delaying their biggest games of the year because of a minor bug

You, sir, need a tinfoil hat.

Actually, the Bug still Exists on Vista, there has even been screenies on the valve forums to prove it.

its just not as bad
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It does not exist in CSS anymore. I will test HL2 and DODS sometime next week.